German alpinist Fabian Buhl comes from a background of climbing and mountaineering and is credited with ascending some of the hardest routes on Earth. A few years ago while climbing in the Karakoram of Pakistan Fabian saw the potential of using a paraglider to access difficult objectives and removing the often long and dangerous approaches by foot. So he became a pilot. But his early attempts were scary and learning was slow and often frustrating. Fabi stuck with it and returned to the Karakoram with enough skill to pull off some solid objectives but he knew to truly take advantage of these “combos” of climbing and flying, and also to be safer he needed to hone his thermalling and XC skills. Fabian’s journey from climbing to paragliding highlights the importance of mentorship, the challenges of overcoming fear, and the thrill of mastering a new sport. As he continues to push the boundaries of what is possible in the sky, his story serves as an inspiration to aspiring pilots and climbers alike. We delve into the importance of understanding the mechanics of thermal flying, using valley winds to your advantage, the influence of climbing on flying skills, and the mental fortitude required to navigate risks in extreme sports. Fabian shares insights on his experiences in the Karakoram, his achievements in paragliding competitions, and his approach to social media as an athlete. The discussion highlights the balance between passion, risk management, and the pursuit of excellence in both climbing and flying. And finally, we conclude with his epic achievement of winning XContest this year by flying 6 300+ FAI triangles in a single season, something that has never been done. The world of paragliding offers limitless potential for adventure, and with dedication and the right guidance, anyone can learn to go big. And in Fabi’s case- REALLY big. Our editor said “this is a VERY good episode! When I come back in my next life I want to come back as Fabi Buhl!”
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Fabian’s journey into paragliding began after a climbing expedition in Pakistan. Understanding valley winds is crucial for effective flying. The transition from climbing to flying presents unique challenges. Mental fortitude is essential in both climbing and flying. Risk management strategies differ between climbing and flying. Fabian emphasizes the importance of learning from failures in flying. Social media can be a double-edged sword for athletes. Preparation for long flights involves understanding weather patterns. The combination of climbing and flying opens new possibilities in the mountains. Fabian’s achievements in paragliding competitions reflect his dedication and skill.
Sound Bites
“What an epic summer you had.” “I have never had real fear.” “I want to focus on the combos.”
Chapters
00:00 A Reunion and Reflection 02:11 From Climbing to Flying: A New Journey 08:34 Learning the Ropes: Building Flying Skills 12:19 The Valley Winds: Understanding Air Dynamics 17:15 The Transition: Climbing to Flying 25:05 Exploring Pakistan: The Perfect Playground 30:23 Achieving Greatness: The X-Contest Journey 34:53 Friendship and Loss in Adventure Sports 36:01 Navigating Risk and Safety in Climbing and Flying 38:29 Comparing Dangers: Climbing vs. Paragliding 42:36 The Balance of Fear and Control in Extreme Sports 45:51 Future Aspirations in Climbing and Paragliding 50:38 The Role of Sponsorship in an Athlete’s Career 52:08 Social Media: Navigating the New Landscape 57:46 Preparing for Long Flights: Strategies and Insights
Gavin McClurg (00:06.37)
Fabi, good to see you, man. Last time I saw you was in Switzerland at the World Cup, which I don't know even know if you were aware, but the last night of that, my best friend died in an avalanche back at home. So that was a...
that went from being a really fun comp to being really horrible for me. So I'm not sure how we parted ways. I think I saw you maybe that last day, but anyway, on to better things. It's nice to see your smiling face here and congratulations, man. What an epic summer you had. Amazing.
Fabian (00:42.768)
Yeah, thanks. yeah, the avalanche, I was not aware, but I was aware that we saw each other in Grindelwald. But yeah.
Gavin McClurg (00:52.192)
Yeah, that was fun. was some beautiful couple days of that was pretty amazing flying over a lot of snow. It was cool.
Fabian (01:00.282)
Yeah, it was my first comp like that. So it was kind of fun. And then we flew this, I remember this one line when we went with Maxime over the glacier and suddenly everybody was going on the right and we're like, okay, maybe we also go to the right, which was kind of fun.
Gavin McClurg (01:19.826)
Yeah, yeah. It was kind of funny. Last night I was having a laugh to myself because you reached out to me, I think it was 2017 or 2018. You were a real pup. You were just getting going and sent me a message that I'd never even saw. I saw it a couple years later and reached out and said, oh man, I can't believe I missed this. But you were coming through my neck of the woods. A lot has happened in almost the last, I guess it's 10 years now, time flies.
Fabian (01:40.451)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:46.018)
I'd love before we talk about this X contest when you had this year, which is really exceptional. Six flights over 300 K FAIs from Kolde Hazard, which has special meaning to me to be. That's where my 2019 race ended. That's a that's a cool spot. And so I know what it's like to start flights there. So we'll talk about that. But I want to rewind the clock and take us back to the beginning. You know, you're obviously a legendary climber. That's
That was your, that's what you've been doing your lifetime, I assume. And then you picked up flying just a few years back and have done these amazing combos in Pakistan. So pick it up where you started. How did you get into it? How did this become part of your repertoire?
Fabian (02:36.665)
Yeah, so I remember well the message that I sent you because I was in Idaho climbing in the fins and it was end of 2018 because it was so I went to Pakistan with Alexander Huber for climbing and we did this first ascent and have been like maybe six weeks on expedition and I came back and I was a little bit fed up. I didn't want to start climbing directly and
Gavin McClurg (02:40.428)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (02:43.924)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (02:49.699)
Yeah.
Fabian (03:06.479)
That's when Manu Nübel and Maxi Knap, they introduced me into flying because I always said, I don't want to fly, it's too dangerous and stuff like that. But then I came back from the expedition and they basically threw me into the air like in one afternoon. And then I had some gear and I went to Idaho. So obviously I had no clue what I was doing.
But Manu gave me your number and I was like I might as well just pass through Sun Valley so I was thinking maybe it works there as well but anyway the Idaho thing was...
Gavin McClurg (03:48.476)
I'm so bummed I missed that message. I didn't even know how I found it. was two years later. went, well, shoot, man, I'm sorry. But not many people even know about the Finns. How did you end up there? mean, not many people know about Idaho, period. But the Finns especially is kind of a cool little neck of the woods.
Fabian (03:56.751)
Yeah.
Fabian (04:05.75)
So...
So the Finns, it's a cool... So limestone cracks are normally better in Europe compared to the US. But my girlfriend Melissa Luneve and my really good friend Ariane Decoq and his girlfriend or now wife Paige Clausen, they were for vacation there. And as I just came back from expedition and we planned to go to the US...
I ended up there doing holidays and the only thing that I after my first flight that I wanted to do was actually flying or ground handling so yeah that's how all this started
Gavin McClurg (04:52.12)
Did you get a chance on that trip when you were over at the Finch? Did you come around the corner and fly King?
Fabian (04:58.299)
Honestly, I have tried. I got blown around in the desert a few times and at some point there was like a... like only by ground handling, you know, like I had all this Jin Yeti 3 that was completely messy, the lines in it. And I think I only did one flight and then I was like, don't know, maybe I have to learn this differently or I don't know. But in the end, I just kept on climbing and it was...
Then just when we came back in Ticino, I started to do a few hike and flies. But I always was, because I didn't properly learn it, so I was always like in between of fear and kind of attracted to it because I know it's cool to fly. But I didn't understand much. So in the beginning, I just did some hike and flies in calm air.
And every once in a while I got a little bit scared and then didn't fly for, I don't know, three weeks or a month. And then I got kind of psyched again, took it out again. Yeah, and it kept on going for this, I don't know, maybe another year or something like that. Until then I was in Patagonia and I flew from Torre after climbing with Melissa.
with Rafaela and with Laura Tiefenthaler to the summit and then took off there. Then I landed in the Torre Valley and I was like, okay, it was really cool. It's really efficient. You can do so much stuff, but I also knew I got super lucky with what I did. And that was the moment hiking out of Torre Valley. said, okay, you have...
the potential to do something really great with this paraglider in the mountains. But you need to learn it and otherwise you will just die with it because it's not only fun. know paragliding is always this kind of limit. The less you understand the less dangerous it feels and you keep on trying. But it's not like in climbing when you can actually
Fabian (07:22.236)
try and climb and fail without having a consequence because you're in the rope. But on the paraglider you need to be as aware of the situation to not put yourself into a situation where it's actually dangerous. And that was the main reason why from that moment onwards I really wanted to properly learn it and start thermal flying and all this.
because Manu Nübel told me like yeah I mean flying down it's cool but anyway at some point you want to thermal fly because this is the only reason or the only way forward for you if you want to read and move in an invisible fluid you have to understand it
Gavin McClurg (08:13.634)
How did you go about building those skills? mean, obviously having Manuel as a mentor is about as good as it gets, know, multi-time ex-Alps pilot and lived there and lives in Tocino right near you. So that must've helped, but how did you, I mean, it sounds like you had this year of kind of just toying with a little bit. It didn't really grab hold right away. Was that because of your climbing background? Just the risk side of it?
Fabian (08:40.89)
Yeah, was because I didn't learn it properly. So I was always having a little bit more fear than I wanted to do it like in like with confidence. so, yeah, Manu lives close by where I grew up in Germany. And I did my few like in this year, I did these trial errors.
And then once I bought like an Air Design Vivo, a Vario and in the springtime of that season when the COVID hit, I tried to learn to thermal fly and it was devastating in the beginning because honestly I traversed any thermal that I was in, the two turrets couldn't go up and bombed out. And so I was like, I didn't really...
it much you know at that time and there was only one booming day that anyway it was probably everywhere rising and I've started to fly around and then I was like it's pretty cool but then we moved basically we went for climbing to france and in france we then decided after the covid to actually move there because of climbing because of the training for the mountains and all this
and
Gavin McClurg (10:07.63)
And the flying, was that part of the decision or really more you were still just climbing? Yeah, okay.
Fabian (10:10.146)
Now I was still climbing. I had no clue that the south of France at that moment is so good for flying. I remember going to Suse and trying to find a place to fly. Now if I know, I mean there is everywhere takeoffs and I drove this one day down to Cistern to Buque because that was the only takeoff that I could find on this weird German
Gavin McClurg (10:19.234)
Really?
Fabian (10:39.74)
paragliding site and then I started to fly there a little bit at that time my girlfriend did a course like a proper course in Seag and we were flying a little bit in Seag at that time also could fly some thermals could go like I don't know 15 20 kilometers or whatever and then we found this apartment at Tony Lamiche which is a
former very strong climber and a good friend of Melissa and also of me. And then while being there and not only being on vacation because now finally we kind of had a place there. We were more in Seajag. I learned to know Lionel. Lionel Philipp, it's the patron of the Teton Lair, which is the flying school there.
And he actually was then, I would say, like the mentor that kind of really told me about flying. And I started to understand more of like how the air is moving, valley winds, how all this flow. He gave me always kind of like some hints.
And I was trying to fly there and fly back and after his summer when he stopped working we were flying a lot at Col d'Isroir. Like always going from the Col to Italy and back and maybe to Seac. So basically what we do in the first hour of the flight nowadays, you know. So it was kind of, yeah, that was kind of how I went into the...
Gavin McClurg (12:17.387)
Right.
Fabian (12:25.654)
into the thermal flying and the real-life sea flying and it was yeah for me it's still unbelievable that i moved to the south of france with wanting to with wanting to learn paragliding but i had no clue that it's actually the best place probably in europe to fly you know
Gavin McClurg (12:37.186)
And he didn't know.
Gavin McClurg (12:45.172)
Yeah, it's an amazing place to fly. A lot of valley winds. How did you, did you start, did you understand there right away that this was, you know, Brienne Seine and some of these areas, Lake Ebram, God, I got my ass kicked down there one time on one of the ex-Alps going south towards Saint Vincent, or Vars, I guess it was, but the valley winds can be atrocious down there.
Fabian (13:05.637)
RSA.
Fabian (13:10.714)
Yeah, so that's everybody is speaking about the value wins and obviously I had my fair share of learnings with the value wins. But when you basically grow up into flying or learn flying down there, you go to the sites like SEAC. So you are starting on a kind of like a West face in the morning and you can't
thermal fly directly. You need to wait for the valley wind to kick in and then you go in like soaring, you gain height and then you can jump into the correct sites from where you can thermal fly. So you directly learn to fly in thermal, like in the valley winds and when you do this exploratory kind of tries to go then to like Colissoire, to Arvieu.
or you jump over into the Puyallot towards the Parc des Ecrans, you know already a little bit about where the flow is and so you always try to use it in favor. And so we have a completely different way of thinking about winds because
I love the valley wind. For me, valley wind is perfect. It's in the south until 2500 meters. You have these crazy strong winds from like midday onwards in summer. It's always the same. It always is efficient because you just go there and you reach soar or you go up. There's no like, might there be a thermal or is it there? No, you just know, okay, this thing works 100%.
Gavin McClurg (14:49.294)
So that's predictable.
Fabian (14:58.993)
The convergence with north wind will be there. It works 100%. The stronger the valley wind converges with the north wind, the bigger zones you have to fly in. And that's a very special part of a way of flying. It's maybe not the easiest thing. think that, for example, on the north side in crazy good conditions, you can fly very big triangles with like
Gavin McClurg (15:03.214)
Hmm.
Fabian (15:29.009)
flying high above the summit, thermal up, the thermal will go straight up like no wind shift, nothing up, next one and it's very easy and very efficient flying on a really good day. We never have this but we have the valley wind which will push us forever back to Kolesvar and that's the biggest advantage we have.
Like you make your way to the west in the morning when it's still weak and at some point you just use the wind.
Gavin McClurg (15:57.422)
Mm.
Gavin McClurg (16:07.15)
Wow, that sounds magical. Will Gad always says, with his ice climbing and climbing background, similar to yours, lots and lots of expeditions, then he's been flying for a very long time, but climbing was his background as well. He always says that people that come from flying, you're obviously, I'm sorry, climbing, you're obviously climbing in a flow state often, but.
it's not a flow sport. In other words, it's not skateboarding, it's not skiing, it's not using gravity, it's not mountain biking. So for him, he always says it makes him really nervous when climbers come from climbing to a real gravity flow sport like this. And because it's a very different kind of flow, it makes him nervous, you know, that...
especially very high level athletes like yourself coming from climbing. Talk about that transition. I mean, not transition, you're still very into climbing, was that something that you also found challenging or did it help that background? Was it a driver in that you could see the potential with what you could do in Pakistan?
Fabian (17:27.085)
Back in the years I was listening to all your podcasts, obviously, because I was seeking in information from wherever I could find it. If I want to learn something, I try to get as much information in and then select what I want and whatnot. I came across this quote quite early and obviously I didn't understand much in the very beginning.
But already after the first few collapses and everything I started to realize, okay, as a climber your main safety or your main reaction is to pull or to go in tight, you know. So it's a very dangerous reflex to develop when you're flying because you need in any, normally in any kind of position you are in
your reflex needs to go, like to just like put your hands up, go to the thing and control your body. And this is actually not so easy to learn, you know. That comes only with a lot of flying. And what I see from kayaking, from other flow sports, and I don't know if it's flow or whatever, but it's like when you move within a fluid, you know, like in the water or in the air.
Gavin McClurg (18:30.456)
The opposite of what feels right, yeah.
Fabian (18:55.441)
so you can read it. For me, this was very difficult to learn and to imagine because I couldn't realize like where it's turbulent, where you know it comes back up again and stuff. And I think it was in the first time I was in Pakistan when Froswara Goldsky told me like just look into the fucking river into this huge
or the big rivers in Pakistan and you see these flat spots but areas that bubble up, areas that go around and this was when I really started to imagine and look precisely into rivers and really try to analyze this kind of fluid and
Gavin McClurg (19:43.448)
fluid.
Fabian (19:53.694)
the air is behaving exactly the same. I am and now where I have I don't know how many thousand hours later.
I fly sometimes in places where I know it's completely in the lee side, it's completely shit but I push as far in as until I find the bubble that I imagine, you And once you have it, you just put your wing on the nose and you will go up. But this, to try it, it took me lot of actually hours in Seag especially where I know kind of very well so that I go always with a little bit more
Wind into the lee side and still always make it out it in the beginning you you are kind of shy It's super turbulent. You can't kind of grab the bubble but at some point you start realizing and trusting your wing as much that you just like go in and then you you leave it and It will find kind of go in it will go left right left right somewhere but the wing wants to get
more energy and at some point if you really stay kind of relaxed you will enter the bubble and then you see like how it's accelerating how it's pulling you let it pull a bit and then you clamp up and then it's just not even that bad often you know
Gavin McClurg (21:22.946)
Yeah, but it takes some mental strength to keep pushing. There's always that moment where you're in that horrendous down and your wing feels terrible and you're, I just gotta get closer, but you're losing your margin, losing your margin, you're getting closer and closer and closer to the terrain. It takes some mental fortitude, especially early on to figure that out.
Fabian (21:42.783)
Yeah, obviously, yeah, but that's why I started with little valley wind and I progressively made it more. And to go into these zones often, if you imagine it correctly, you don't fly straight because you want to go stay in this kind of curve of the fluid. And suddenly it's not as crazy as if you go, if you would just enter into it straight, you know.
Gavin McClurg (21:48.558)
Mm.
Fabian (22:12.166)
And we have, for example, on these big lines, we have also a lot of valleys or venturis that we either could make height and fly straight above, but then get a lot of downwash turbulences, or you actually stay low and you just like look kind of on your speed of the warrior, like where it's the fastest and you get like kind of pulled along, you know. It's like when you throw a stick into a river, it doesn't
Gavin McClurg (22:35.886)
Mmm.
Fabian (22:41.5)
goes straight through. It always goes like where the fluid is the fastest. it's what basically Luke also says, as long as your wing is in front, he finds more energy than you imagine, you know. And it's obviously, takes a lot of confidence into your gear to not, because as soon as you get tense, I also get tense, know, then I go on the brakes or on the bees.
Gavin McClurg (22:43.427)
Yep.
Fabian (23:10.342)
and suddenly you don't feel anything anymore.
Gavin McClurg (23:14.158)
and let them trust the wing. The analogy to rivers is always perfect. He has also a lot of kayaking background, but those who do spend time in rivers seem to get the sport really quick, because it's exactly how air flows. As you were telling that story, I was just imagining how the water goes by a big river rock.
that's in the way and it's that eddy fence and then how it kind of twists back in and starts coming back towards the rock and then it's really mellow, even in really steep creeks. It can be just a place you can sit there.
Fabian (23:47.119)
Exactly.
Fabian (23:51.807)
And that's where I think all this XC flying is so interesting because you can't see it, you can't imagine it and the more you fly the better your imagination gets and the more you can actually play with stronger conditions or whatever but I think that's the end. Obviously flying in Pakistan you don't know the place, you look...
just in the sun and into the ground below you and you're like, I don't know, but we go here. It's just on a completely different level compared to back home. Like on Kholizwar, there is not a single thermal during the flight that I don't know how to fly. But in Pakistan, I have flown the triangle once.
So you are there like I have no clue I don't even know where I am and you're just like I always find myself looking back Seeing like checking where the angle of the Sun is then I look into it like directly straight line from the Sun and Then I tried to imagine where like the most airflow comes Where there is like a kind of a collector or something and then from my height that I will reach that I will decide if I work to
where to find the thermal or where to search it. And it's always cool if you find it like directly, you know, that's the ultimate game.
Gavin McClurg (25:26.434)
Had you done a ton of climbing in the Karakoram in Pakistan prior to your flying days?
Fabian (25:33.711)
Yeah, not a ton but I have done climbing expeditions. The one I think that marked me the most was exactly the one with Alexander Huber directly before I started flying where we did the first ascent of the Big Easy on Choctawree which is in the LUT group and it's like a three summit ridge line that's basically three kilometers of granite climbing and
And I started to love Pakistan in this expedition. Like the culture, the place, living on expedition. Yeah, I mean for me it's holidays, know. It's like the, it's the perf, it's what I love. It's mountains, you go there, you have endless possibilities and you have people that are extremely friendly.
and Gilgit Baltistan, the people are... they're fucking amazing.
Gavin McClurg (26:37.72)
Was it obvious to you when you started flying, were these combos something that popped into your head pretty quickly in terms of the possibilities or was that on a specific trip when you were there, you saw some flying or maybe, when did it start clicking that you could use this as such an incredible tool to eliminate the...
the long ins and the long outs.
Fabian (27:08.552)
That was the reason why I started flying. I had an idea where I asked Manu Nübel like three or four years before I started to fly if potentially I could fly into this valley and how much time it would need that I learn it. And he said, yeah, in winter time it's not so good. It's not possible. But then when I flew down from Tore, I instantly
wanted to get better because I knew that it's just the way how to move efficiently in the mountains. I mean we try to have lighter gear, lighter like faster techniques, climb like all day all night just to be more efficient you know but the efficiency of a paraglider to go down or even to approach some places is
on a completely different level.
Gavin McClurg (28:09.966)
Many climbers who get into this sport seem to grab, you know, it just grabs hold so tight that you start climbing less and less. You seem to still be climbing a ton. What's taking more of your passion these days?
Fabian (28:27.762)
The first three years that I actually wanted to learn to fly or get the best pilot I possibly can be, I only was flying basically. I just trained a little bit on my wall at home to just stay in kind of shape, but my shape was really not good. But it was also, I knew that it is the weakest part, you know, so I need to improve that.
The climbing part for going into the mountains or mountaineering you don't need a super high level of climbing. But for the ideas I had I definitely needed to be a better pilot. since I am happy with my flying I fly less and go climb again more. Because now I want to fly the good days. don't need... In the beginning I flew every day.
three hours, four hours and I didn't care if it was windy or not because in the valley wind you can always fly. I was just searching hours. That was the only thing because I think in any sport you can't beat the hours. It's also like I think it's from Buddhism where they say you have to do something 10,000 hours to master it. I think in any sport it's the same.
Gavin McClurg (29:53.39)
There's no cheating time really. There's no shortcuts. You've had a remarkably diverse flying career, I would say at this point. We could call it a career, even though it's incredible that you were really, sounds like you're really just learning it in COVID, which seems like yesterday, but you're flying an Enzo and World Cups. You're doing these combos in Pakistan. I'm assuming you do.
Fabian (29:55.579)
No.
Gavin McClurg (30:21.526)
quite a bit of old Biv. I mean, obviously you've done this a lot in Pakistan, but with the climbing combos and putting your skis on in the air and it's all just fantastic. And then now winning X-Consists this year, which is no easy feat. There's a lot of people chasing that. Did you go into this year with that in mind or was it something that started, you just started pulling off these big flights and, we could maybe do this.
Fabian (30:50.559)
Yeah, no, no, for me it was like not a goal before the season. For me, Colis-Oire, it's flying with Timo and Eduard and also Damian, but he has a little less time. So we were flying most of the time with Timo and Eduard back in the years. I mean, I flew my first 300 there and they were already flying 350.
Gavin McClurg (30:50.904)
Was that a goal?
Fabian (31:18.751)
doing these crazy flights all the time and I was every day on takeoff with them but I couldn't imagine how you can fly that fast, how you can be that efficient and I could fly on the best day at 300 and with more and more practice and more and more analyzing it you suddenly get to a similar speed.
the thing that I was searching. mean with Eduard we are... Eduard and Flavien we are like a group of three. Basically during summer we try to fly every good day, you know, and we get motivated a lot. It was just this year I hadn't had planned to go to Pakistan for an expedition, but I went with my sister and her husband for holidays to Karimabad to show them the culture, the place and everything.
And I brought my CO-Lite, so I was like, okay, I do some... When you hike there, I come in the evening, I land there and we be there and then we go back. And it was basically overdeveloping every day. But in the middle or in the last week, there was this one day that in the forecast it looked completely blue and no overdevelopment. And then I...
went to take off, they did some other touristic stuff and yeah this was the day when I flew this 308 kilometer and obviously then I was like kind of motivated to 308 in Pakistan so I'm really keen, I seem to be good flying well so I was really keen to go back and actually fly my Enso because I was just cruising on the sail
If I like to fly the whole day, I really like I love flying man So, you know, but I just because we went there for holidays. I never brought any Big wing or like harness or whatever And so I was really eager to fly in coles war and I arrived Not too late not too early because anyway the season started off slow and Suddenly we had these few good days
Fabian (33:44.0)
And Edward was always flying, or not always, but was flying a few times from the, more from the south, from Gordon. And I was a bit lazy to drive there. So I always, even if sometimes it didn't look that good, I went to Collis-Barre and somehow it always was like flying 312, 320 or whatever. And
Yeah, then a friend of mine told me like, hmm, I think you can win it. And I was like, okay. And at that time I really didn't, haven't even watched one time the list. But then obviously as soon as I knew, was like, okay, this is crazy because a few years back I saw Edward and Timo battling it out. And it was Timo always because of the...
You know, the one way flights in Brazil or in South Africa. And yeah, then it was kind of luck that I wanted because it was the really, really impressive flight on a day that I flew 330. And he flew three, like world record, I don't know, 356 or 58, I don't know. And so obviously I thought, okay, that's
me it's over but somehow the season just stopped. He only needed to fly 295 kilometers which is basically he just should sit in his harness. But it was just it stopped like it was crazy because we had done the crew mode. Yeah obviously easy and
Gavin McClurg (35:23.719)
That's a gimme there. God, that's amazing.
Gavin McClurg (35:31.896)
So he only needed one more flight to, and then he would have been, okay, I got you. Yeah.
Fabian (35:38.727)
Yeah, and in the end the season was crazy because it just stopped and Brazil didn't start early enough, you know.
Gavin McClurg (35:48.376)
Were you pretty close to Timo?
Fabian (35:51.36)
Yeah, he was a really good friend there for sure. mean, he was in Barcelona for the monitor, like the instructor and the tandem license. And so these two years he was there, he was basically always flying and because he was with Olivier, that was his boss, and also the like...
Gavin McClurg (35:54.314)
I'm sorry,
Gavin McClurg (36:04.194)
The Observer.
Gavin McClurg (36:07.947)
Fabian (36:18.527)
So he knew, the talent and how motivated he is. So for somebody that was in school, he had incredible freedom to fly the good days. it was cool two years.
Gavin McClurg (36:36.236)
You're, I was reading this morning, you lost a friend, not to flying I don't think, but not Timo, another friend in climbing. I mentioned I had my friend that I lost in the avalanche. Have these been, how have these impacted your approach to risk, losing these friends, your approach to risk and safety and what you're doing?
Fabian (37:03.721)
Yeah, it was Loris. So it was my main partner at that time for combos. He was really talented. He was really flying well. And basically we just wanted to go into the mountains for some training because it was the first snow. It was a day after my birthday and then he triggered this avalanche. I mean, yeah, he got...
taken out and it was not much snow but you know when you lose your balance and I was just extremely lucky that I was below this rock and this passed over me so yeah I mean at that time I don't know and still I there is not one day that I don't think on it you know and so it's definitely
For me, it's super hard to still keep on going into the mountains and keep this motivation for it. Because especially we have had a lot of ideas of projects for combos together. doing them sometimes now, alone or with Damian or maybe not, but thinking on them, it's really tough.
and I think it changed my way in the way of going into the mountains in that I try to combine like maybe more things like easier routes that maybe you can control a little bit more but with the flying so in general it's a cool like day or like action that has value for me but
I push a little bit less in the mountains and it's not even that we pushed that day it was just like extremely extremely unlucky
Gavin McClurg (39:06.638)
Thank
What's more dangerous? What are the things that you do? What makes your hair raise up a little bit more on your back?
Fabian (39:19.07)
Yeah, so I have thought about this question a lot and I get it asked a lot. I have no clear answer to it. But I think that for me. So you need to watch if you want to compare two sports on the danger, you need to always watch the entry level and the pro level. And I think climbing in an entry level, it's very safe.
But the higher you push in a sport or you want to do like especially on alpine climbing because then it's where you actually risk something like on technical sport climbing or whatever you're always safe But in the mountains, I think the higher you push With the more risk you take Potentially the outcome is is is very very cool and very
like a first descent that stands out. The slightest error on it, you can also die. And in flying, I see the more you progress in the sport, in the sport, in flying, the more you can visualize the air, the more you can handle the conditions, the more you fly acro, the more you can control the situations. And so my...
idea of was always paragliding is safer on a high level. But then the accident of Timo happened. Timo for me was the the most talented young person with an incredible feeling for a wing. I have never seen somebody having a feeling for a wing and for situations like Timo. But still he had this accident. So
I always say and he had one or two other kind of not that close calls but situations where he was flying where that he that I remember the conversation and he is like you can get betrayed by your wing you know and I didn't understand what he thought at that moment but in the end now you can fly and ends it's such an incredible stable wing you can
Fabian (41:46.497)
push into whatever you want, normally it stays open. The thing is just in competition or when you want to fly back from your big triangles, you need to maximize the energy that's left in the air. So you kind of or in the competition you try to be faster and only get the strongest climbs which often are lee side or whatever.
and you need to tuck in very close to the rock. Also when we fly back from the south to your close on, on La Blanche, you're full bar. A little less full bar, I would say you still have contact on the B, you don't push them up like in competition. But I think exactly in this moment, it's where paragliding gets...
extremely difficult and extremely dangerous on the high level because suddenly you expose yourself to flying close to the ground where you know that the slightest turbulence that you are not able to handle will impact you and so that's more the I can't tell you which sport is more dangerous
I think in the climbing part you can decide and in the more and in the flying part you are like you feel safe until it's not safe anymore.
Gavin McClurg (43:21.804)
Yeah. And there's always that moment. Even in your big flights this summer, was there always some part in that, you know, 10 hours, 11 hours that something comes out of the blue that is a surprise? have you guys really figured that route out and you've got it down?
Fabian (43:44.225)
So, beside of thermal ears, I have never gotten any collapse this year. Like not on the CO light, not on the end. So, I think at some point you are so connected with the wing and how it feels, know, how it accelerates and then I think if you're awake enough and fast enough, you can...
be flying quite safe. I will never say I am flying safe or it can't happen to me, you know. That's exactly what I wanted to say with the discussion early on. But I think that I am for most of the conditions that I put myself in, I'm fast enough on the wing. But I can't guarantee it, you know. But honestly, in the flying this summer on this triangle,
Gavin McClurg (44:15.159)
Yeah, yeah.
Fabian (44:38.752)
there's not much stuff that surprises you. If you know this line and this year we flew it with a lot more wind than we flew the other years. That's also why we got with a year that's maybe not as good as 2022. We got still much more flights out because in the end we discussed with Eduard about our flights and we were like, yeah, obviously we just fly with much more wind. And anyway, 300 basically
on any day that you can fly the full day and it's not overdeveloping you kind of make it work you know it's just the question is if the day is good enough to fly more but yeah that's always when you fly into the west you start realizing okay maybe it's a little bit too much north I need to point the point like somewhere northwest or more west and that's the
what decides for the day, the rest, it's basically you do what you do all the time.
Gavin McClurg (45:42.798)
When you think back to your career in climbing and then now flying.
What has more fear? What has more, which has put you in situations that have made you really scared more?
Fabian (46:08.063)
Like the flying, it's not, I honestly, I don't know. I would say I'm...
Gavin McClurg (46:08.6)
What?
Fabian (46:18.975)
I don't know how much hours I flew this season, but I think real fear I have never had, like not a single minute. I had respect where I was more awake and I was like getting a little bit tense on the breaks, but I was never being, I'm not in fear. If I would be in fear in paragliding, I think I wouldn't enjoy it and I would go land.
Gavin McClurg (46:33.902)
Sure.
Gavin McClurg (46:46.798)
What has you excited about the future? are you planning as you're getting into winter? I know you're up in Germany now, you're going climbing tomorrow in Switzerland, but what's on your radar in this sport and in climbing?
Fabian (47:08.225)
Yeah, I think now, so the XC flying, I really like it and I will do it. I tried competitions, I really suck. I have really hard, I can't even thermal fly in a competition. There's a gaggle and I'm suddenly, I don't know, I can't even go to cloud base anymore. It's like, it's this thing that I started with skiing in my head, with skiing competitions that I can't handle the competition.
So I tried it various times, but I always think like I go land, I can't enjoy the flight. I'm like completely in another world. I really have zero feeling on a competition task. so, yeah, the combos are for me now the thing that I want next year, I want to focus on. I think there's a lot of potential flying somewhere, going skiing or climbing.
and I would love to go back in December, January again to Patagonia because these are just the mountains where the wind and all the flying conditions are obviously it's not a place to actually go paragliding but if you get these lucky days it's incredible.
Gavin McClurg (48:31.15)
That surprises me about you. I gather that you're pretty good at dealing with obstacles and challenge and you want to get really good. I would think that you identifying that you're not good at competitions means you're just going to get good at competitions. You're going to figure it out.
Fabian (48:48.833)
I don't know. It's not that I don't like the competition itself. Every any come any situation of competition gets me stressed. I mean I even got stressed with Edward about the the last flight we did for XC contest, you know, because I am really working super bad on pressure and
In competitions I know what to do, I spoke a lot with Luke about it, can even in St. André I did three or four times like the highest start ever, no problem, I can fly... Yes! But as soon as I need to follow somebody or like stay in a gaggle or just make an...
Gavin McClurg (49:31.394)
You know theoretically how it works. Yeah.
Fabian (49:42.184)
a rational decision under pressure, it's absolutely done. And I mean, I can now laugh about it because I think it's hilarious. It's really like I tried and I tried to go into this in these competitions with paragliding with knowing that I stopped skiing for it. I never accepted to do any competition in climbing. It was just
because I wanted to get a better pilot and everybody like Alexandre Chauvreza, Luke, Damian, they all told me you only learn to fly faster in competition. And so I was like super motivated to try it. But in competition itself I failed miserably.
Gavin McClurg (50:33.966)
Is hike and fly attractive to you? Do you see yourself maybe competing in the XL someday, something like that?
Fabian (50:42.205)
I do a lot of high control and I do lot of verticals for training. I get asked a lot about the question of X-Alps because I train all the time. I'm in France with Damian. I mean Damian in France is my best friend and we train a lot. And he is obviously super psyched for X-Alps and so I would be interested in it. But as I...
Gavin McClurg (51:02.082)
He's pretty good at it.
Fabian (51:10.977)
told you I cannot handle pressure. I am 100 % sure that I will break my back on some landing because I know I need now to land on this fucking small thing on the side of the hill. I just make a huge wing over and I try to land there and I will explode myself. And so for the safety and for enjoying the sport longer I stay out of a hike and fly competition.
Gavin McClurg (51:38.35)
Fabby, you make your living from sport? Is this your job?
Fabian (51:44.918)
Yeah, I am in this very privileged position that I have sponsors like it's mainly Adidas, La Sportiva and Petzl and obviously for the wings also.
It's not only that they pay for my living and the training. It's also they... started that like 2013 and since then they just... Every year that I started with bouldering, then I went to multi-pitch climbing, then to mountaineering, then I've only flew three years to get better in that and they never actually put pressure on me because they know or they have so much faith that...
the outcome will be kind of cool, that they don't make me pressure on it. And that's really, I'm fully aware of it and I think it's crazy. And I'm really happy about that privilege. That's also why I try to do slideshows to give the people back something or like present them like the things we do, because we are already living in this crazy position that we can actually wake up and...
go run, go climb and go fly. That's just luck or I don't know but it's really cool.
Gavin McClurg (53:12.812)
I read an interesting thing about your relationship with social media. In a sense, you're quite a bit younger than I am, but you have a, I think we have a very similar attitude about social media and content. And I always thought, you all the years I was with Patagonia and everything, that it's kind of a necessary evil in a sense.
I really enjoy following people like Will Gad, because he does these just incredibly detailed long posts about risk and movement in the mountains. It's very educational. It can be used quite well. But anyway, I wanted to hear about your relationship with social media, because I read an article about the...
Fabian (53:50.635)
Mm-hmm.
Gavin McClurg (54:01.164)
You see it often as just, it's this fast world and it's just, you you just have to, you put stuff out because you have to, there's no real thought to it, there's no real, it's an influencer kind of thing.
Fabian (54:07.115)
Yeah.
Fabian (54:15.2)
Yeah, think... Yeah, exactly. So I think that's another thing from my sponsors that I don't have in my contracts that I need to post every day like a lot of other athletes nowadays have. And I don't have a huge amount of followers, but I think I have followers that engage with me and...
They write a lot, they want to know a lot of stuff. So I try to make it more performance based. So I do something that I'm proud of, then I make a post about it. I write the story of it and I also try to go with what I thought about or how I prepared for it. at least the caption, it's not only like some fancy...
fancy sentence that makes it sound epic or whatever. No, that's not what I want. I actually want to do something that I'm proud of, present it and then tell the story so everybody can read it and kind of come back to the profile, scroll through something and if they click on my Patagonia post from when I flew the first time to Torre, they actually can find some information about it.
The social media now it's so fast you can put on stuff, start your own hype, I don't know, you always post the same picture of your morning routine of running somewhere up or whatever and it would work, you know. But for me there is no... Yeah, you don't produce something or you don't give something out that the people will actually interest in. And as an athlete...
you need to kind of make a line between influencing and athletes, you know? Because I don't want to be put into the same box than like most of the influencers where they make nice pictures, they photograph their face a lot, have a lot of smart things to say. But in the end, there is nothing behind it, you know? I want to try to be the other way around. Like I grew up with magazines.
Gavin McClurg (56:33.612)
Literally.
Fabian (56:38.818)
So when we did a climb or anything, was like somebody, a journalist that had like really he knew about what he's writing. He knew the scene. He elected you for your climb. He put you on the cover. So it was worth something, you know, he could kind of select from a bubble of like different things, like what actually he wanted to present. Now, when this completely got dropped, basically,
everybody on social media can scream as loud as they as he wants and a picture that's taken on a mountain where you went by a chairlift and the weather is like incredibly bad or you actually did a proper climb and you have one as photo of your partner it's obviously the way worse picture and the publication will be way less efficient, you know or like successful
And that's, I think it's a big shame of it and that's also why I try to make, if I did something, a YouTube video. Because that will actually stand a little bit longer. You know, you can go back on YouTube, you find the video, you can watch the 10 minutes if you're interested in it. And maybe this video only has 3000 views, but maybe the 3000 people that actually watched it learned something from it. And the...
Gavin McClurg (58:08.052)
inspired.
Fabian (58:09.506)
200k or the 1 million people that saw me taking off from Bardes-Aigra where it's just sketchy, but that's all about it. They saw and engaged for five seconds, you know.
Gavin McClurg (58:22.646)
Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. It's an interesting, scary world, but it sounds like you're navigating it quite well. Finally, final question. These big flights, these 300s, how do you prepare for them? For those listening who haven't cracked the 300 yet or want to come join you next year and fly one of these amazing flights, because that's a very special part of the world.
Mostly only flown down there in the X-OPS. I did a little bivy one year from Chamonix all the way down, which was extraordinary. I visually I can see it all, but I haven't done any of these FAIs that you've done there. How to prepare? How do you think about your day? When does it start your preparations for that? Because, you know, being in the air for 10 plus hours is, you know, there's some endurance there. There's some it's not all easy.
Fabian (59:21.954)
Yeah, so I think that for flying 300 in general in a place like in Colisoir or in the south of France or also in Antolz or in Ticino you need the correct day. It needs already to be like a good day, you know. I mean, you can make it work with a birthday, but if it's your first, I think you need a correct day and then then basically you need to watch a lot of
kind of track locks and you will kind of get the hang of where to fly and then you don't need to fly fast you need to don't make an error because this thermal flying like always like only make greedy only full bar like because you can actually fly full bar on these good days to make it
still efficient enough. It's not worth it if you can't handle it for 11 hours or 10 hours. So it's better to slow down a bit, take maybe a Xenotu or like a more chill wing or even a CoLite. Stay the whole day in the air and just don't make an error. Like think twice about any transition you do.
because there are bigger transitions so you need to imagine the valley flow, how far the north wind comes, where the convergence that they will be. Because if you're placed just 300 meters to the right or to the left you can have 30 minutes of scratching or you go out straight. And so I think that's the main thing that a lot of people that I see call it war because there is...
always on the good days there's a ton of people nowadays but they fly super aggressive in the morning and super fast and in the end you're just like staying high and floating and it's working way better you know so i think it's just you have time like it's flying like 10 hours 10 30
Fabian (01:01:42.5)
So just make it realistic and yet don't waste yourself in the first few hours just because you think it's the way to do it. No, I think the way to do it is to just fly consistently for a long time.
Gavin McClurg (01:02:01.282)
Was this an unusually good year or a normal year, weather-wise?
Fabian (01:02:06.051)
I would say it was a kind of normal year but not a good year because we had much more northwesterly wind compared to 2022 and Cantina, the last mountain we get pushed over, was working, stopped working quite early this season.
like you know we sometimes if the valley wind is super warm and super strong the sun can go down and you still have like the because if there's no clouds on the west side of the across then the the the rock stays warmer and has more sun until very very late but if you have cloud development the shadow comes a little bit earlier so even if there is strong valley breeze the
Gavin McClurg (01:02:31.214)
interesting.
Fabian (01:03:01.027)
slope gets catabatic and suddenly you don't get pushed over so you need to kind of know where to find the convergence and then it's much more technical to make it back.
Gavin McClurg (01:03:13.582)
That's gotta be a riot. Well, tell those guys I said hi and I'd love to come join you one of these years and get some of that ourselves. I just had Pete Thompson on the show. We haven't actually launched it yet, but he was the first one to crack 300 over here. Yeah, it's a totally different ball game in Colorado for sure.
Fabian (01:03:17.315)
you
Fabian (01:03:32.159)
I know, I want to go there. It looks amazing. It looks really cool. It looks really cool.
Gavin McClurg (01:03:39.75)
Very cool. Very cool. And I've only tried it ever from from Antholz on it. It was a pretty good day, actually. Aaron Durgati and some of the other guys were there and Alex and stuff. they, you know, what we don't have is that early start and just.
milking the terrain, just really close to the terrain and getting these little bubbles and you don't even really have to turn for the first 60, 70 K. That was at least my experience in anthills. But what we do have here is ripping thermals and really high base. So we have some things that are an advantage and some things that are a disadvantage. And we've always known it could happen. Pete did it. What we don't have is people. He's by himself doing that.
Fabian (01:04:09.027)
Yeah.
Fabian (01:04:20.385)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:04:23.618)
You say, you pull up at Coldo's Ard and there's probably 50 pilots, probably like fisha, I imagine. you know, so you've got.
Fabian (01:04:29.379)
No, but I don't know. I was flying this year also some flights completely alone, you know. It's just the really good days there you have people. But you can fly many days where there is nobody on the call. But the thing is, I think I have studied this track log of Pete a little bit. I have studied some other track logs and I think you always need to, you know,
Gavin McClurg (01:04:37.4)
Really? Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:04:42.954)
Interesting. wow.
Fabian (01:04:57.449)
see the terrain that you're flying in, get the strong points of it, like which if it's high base, if it's strong thermals, if it's like a lot of valley wind pushing you back, or if it's like in the north just like really smooth like air, and you need to fly the strengths of the place. And so I next year if I want
I would want to fly somewhere else than in Pakistan or in France the 300 or just bigger flights because I want to learn to fly other places. They fly differently and I think it's just kind of a different style that you need to adapt to which is quite cool.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:46.754)
Well, don't tell anybody, but we've got much bigger potential here. We know it can happen here in Idaho, not far from where you were actually over in the fins. It's actually a ways from here, but it's the start and the out and back is huge. just, it requires a little more, you know, an early morning and getting over there or setting up a base camp, but it's a...
Fabian (01:05:52.01)
Yeah
Gavin McClurg (01:06:11.096)
We've got it dialed now and I can't wait for next year to do it. So you're more than welcome to come join us. It'd be a lot of fun to have you. But Fabby, thanks for your time, man. I appreciate it. It's great to see you. It's gotten completely dark on your screen. It must be well into night over where you are. But.
Fabian (01:06:14.913)
Nice. Yeah, that would be fun.
Fabian (01:06:26.115)
Yeah, it's getting night. I'm just sitting in the room.
Gavin McClurg (01:06:31.694)
sitting there in the dark. But I appreciate you. We all do. It's been just so fun to watch your ascendancy through this sport. It's been really, really wonderful. You're very inspiring what you're doing and I wish you all the best and congratulations on your fantastic win this year. That was special and a remarkable achievement. That's hard to do.
Fabian (01:06:57.271)
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the congratulations, especially for inviting me to the show because I mean, I learned a lot from the show just a few years ago. So I hope some people will enjoy the show as well and also learn something or get inspired or whatever. But I think we are a small community. so all these kind of knowledge, it's very valuable for all of us to like
listen to get new... I mean, each episode that I listen to, I take something back, you know, like, I haven't thought about that like that, or... So I think it's cool that we have, like, you doing the show and that we have kind of a knowledge base, basically, you know?
Gavin McClurg (01:07:46.38)
Yeah, thank you and I appreciate your contributions. Thanks, man. Great.
